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I'm in the process of reading this book and I have a question.
Part of the first agreement is to not gossip. But what I'm not clear about is this. We all get opinions about people that shape our interactions with them. If someone asks me about a person I won't lie and may have a negative opinion of them.
I can certainly express it as *my* opinion but is that really different than gossip? Is so why and how would I go about not spreading my own poisin?
Part of the first agreement is to not gossip. But what I'm not clear about is this. We all get opinions about people that shape our interactions with them. If someone asks me about a person I won't lie and may have a negative opinion of them.
I can certainly express it as *my* opinion but is that really different than gossip? Is so why and how would I go about not spreading my own poisin?
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Portland
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Mon, November 29, 2004 - 4:02 PMthis agreement was difficult for me to grasp as well
it is valuable and wothwhile to heed .. being that expending energy discussing another person which you have to assume you know their intenions, history, and consequence of every opinion, incident, and interaction of this other person you are discussing
in business you can remove the personal factor from the mix
and i think when you discuss someones known skills it is on what they put out there or how they represent themselves .. this can be done in a circle of friends or family members if you do it with love and your intentions are really to come to an understanding if at all possible you would want to do this firsthand with the person... no process is perfect but you want to swing your words through with little assumption as possible or noting that .... one other thing i got from this agreement that i think is more important when it comes to karmic liability is that whatever comes from your mouth/voice ... is removed from yourself once it reaches anothers ears, paper, electronic device .. and then can be manipulated or there can be miscommunication ... so thereforth your word can be twisted and can have cause that you never originally intended .... so watch your intentions and energy dialouges carefully .... sometimes we feel a tightness in our chests or a low energy when we gossip ... this can signal you to watch your words ... but the opposite can be true where you are sharing an enlightening story and there are other characters/persons in your interpretation of the event ... when the intentions are strong and heartfelt ... it is more difficult for another to schew that which you put out there...
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Tue, November 30, 2004 - 9:54 AMWell, you can always just keep your opinions to yourself, as well.... rather than allowing your negative thoughts about someone else to influence someone else's thoughts, before they can form their OWN opinions.
You could always say something like "I'd rather let you form your own opinions about (person)."
Since we filter everything through our own Dream anyway, and there tend to be these pesky value judgements, etc, lying around.... the person we're talking to could have completely DIFFERENT judgements.
I think it's safest just to refrain from talking about other people, if you have negative things to say. Because, are these negative things a reflection of the assumptions/judgements YOU are making about the other person, or truly something evil they've done?
(I mean sure, if you have first-hand knowledge they're a child molester, convicted murderer, have seen severed fingers in their fridge-- yeah. Tell others. But otherwise? Probably safest not to.) -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Tue, November 30, 2004 - 11:49 AMThanks HeatherLyn & Tina - I appreciate your thoughts. BTW, nice spots HeatherLyn!!
Let me expand on this a little bit because I don't think I was really clear and there's perhaps more details that will help with understanding my question.
I hate to make it sound like a "scenario" here because that often feels like I'm looking for an excuse - but this is where my dilema is stuck.:)
Ok - so I'm not having trouble grasping the concept so much as I am having trouble reconciling and applying it given the agreements I've made with myself around it.
First let me say that I actually made an agreement for integrity and honest with myself and others about 1 year ago - before reading The Four Agreements. It's been working very well for me and gossip is certainly something I've been conscious of - although not completely refraining from.
In general I do try to let others form their own opinions and try to refrain from sharing my thoughts and experiences when they are negative.
In the situation that came up recently I actually did ask the other person to share their opinion of the person in question first - wanting to hear their untainted view before sharing mine. In this case they were observant of very similar concerns that I had regarding the other person.
When I did share my thoughts I was careful to speak of this person's factual information that I was aware of and not make supposition and speak only limited amounts of opinion and personal observation.
Now here's the additional information. I was having this discussion with a poly lover of mine and we were discussing someone who had been involved with a past poly lover of mine. I had a difficult time being around this person then and have chosen not to continue associating with them although they have made the offer several times. I do see this person in similar social circles semi-frequently though and am always polite and uninvasive about it. There is nothing dangerous or inherently "bad" about this person - I just don't enjoy being around them for several reasons and my ex-lover had similar emotions about them.
So I wasn't just randomly spouting poison - I felt a personal inclusion in this because it was possible my lover might have been interested in this other person. Also, knowing this person and my previous lover's history with them I was concerned about my current lover's potential interaction with them.
So there's my dilema - not sure how to reconcile speaking my truth to my lover without invecting poison on another. Also the more general question is - how do you deal with this when asked a direct question by another. I'm not sure if keeping my mouth shut falls in line with my personal agreement for openness.
I can certainly structure the words to minimize the spread of poison - but that sounds more like an excuse.
Thanks for the thoughts! -
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Put an end to GOSSIPING!
Thu, May 26, 2005 - 12:32 PM"I was having this discussion with a poly lover of mine and we were discussing someone who had been involved with a past poly lover of mine."
The problem stems NOT from the topic of conversation, rather that all parties are not SIMULTANEOUSLY involved in the discussion. When generating talk about a third party who is not present at time of conversation, GOSSIPING is created...end of story.
GOSSIPING is "talking behind someones back." This is how rumors gets created. If everyone chose to AVOID creating idle chatter about other people (when they are not arround to participate in the conversation), then GOSSIPING would no longer exist. -
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Re: Put an end to GOSSIPING!
Thu, May 26, 2005 - 1:42 PMare you talking about me?? -
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Re: Put an end to GOSSIPING!
Thu, May 26, 2005 - 2:25 PMIf you choose to participate, my reply is yes. This is an open discussion group for anyone and everyone who participates.
And yes, your remark is also funny, a form of downplaying another: ridiculous ridicule.
LOL
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 5:28 PMWhen you have friends that like to run their mouths, the best thing you can do is just be.
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 7:59 PMSilence is Powerful
"Silence is the cornerstone of character."
--Charles Alexander Eastman, OHIYESA SANTEE SIOUX
Be still and know. Anyone can verbally attack another. Anyone can be a smart aleck. Anyone can be angry and tell other people things that will hurt them. Anyone can be sarcastic, devaluating and belittling. It takes a Warrior to be silent. Silence is so powerful. Silence can be so loving.
My Creator, if I get into a situation today that needs me to respond with silence, help me to use my silence in a good and sacred way. In my silence, let me be talking to You and You talking to me. Silence is the way of the warrior.
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Unsu...
Re: The first agreement and gossip
Mon, May 30, 2005 - 3:06 PMI deleted my post about my life coach dilemma because I realized it might be a form of gossip, though not intended that way. I get confused on this as well.
I think it is Hugh Prather, author of "Notes to Myself" and "How to Be Happy and Still Live in the World," who says that we form our negative opinions, it comes out of our mouth, and now we have spread this to other minds.
But in this case, maybe we feel it is wrong to use our powers of personal discrimination, the ability to refine our sensibilites, and to engage in making judgement, which can help to protect ourselves and others. The problem comes for me when I wonder how to share this with someone else because I am also sharing a part of myself. I wonder if this is why people get so uncomfortable about "gossip" no matter what form it takes.
So I guess I see this as someone asking me for MY opinion or my version of my dream (but then why are so many of these "dreams" collectively agreed upon?) And if you say, "no comment" but you don't want to lie and say only the good things about that person (especially if you struggle to find those things), you reveal a lot too.
I guess there is only so far I can take this. I appreciate it when people warn me, though I realize I can come to my own conclusions and often what they warned me of, I didn't experience at all. And if I do, it probably caused both mysef and this person less distress in the long run.
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Mix the facts up a bit and tell it like a story!
Mon, May 30, 2005 - 3:26 PMTo protect the innocent and avoid law suits, writers frequently use bogus names in their novels, plays and other fictional works, since they often base their tales on TRUE events.
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Wed, August 23, 2006 - 1:36 PMOthers probably already adequately responded to this, but i'm tired today and didn't want to read all of those. But i did want to give my two cents.
I see a big difference between gossip (and poisoning/perpetuating poison/negative ways) and having crucial communications with those close to us, biologically or otherwise.
So yeah, i kind of dissented on Ruiz's ideas here, and thought he should have made more distinctions...then again, when he brought up the idea of 'poisoning' that makes a kind of distinction.
So i'm thinking that gossiping is problematic *when* people are not thinking thru what they're doing, and just reflecting/mirroring the poisonous ways in which we are conditioned as powerless-feeling "citizens".
Any other takes? -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Thu, August 24, 2006 - 11:27 AMI think that there's no real problem if we
can distinguish the "dream reality" from
what's out there and that they are different.
Normally, all we see is our projections.
Therefore, If we start by saying this is my
opinion, my perception, or how it seems
to me and openly acknowledge the source
of the preception...
The most important thing, I think is to be able
to consider a completely new dream in every situation. -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Thu, March 22, 2007 - 11:59 PMI agree with the idea of not gossiping. Gossip is always negative or is it? what is positive gossip? What would be so wrong with saying good positive things about people that are true? Is this still gossip?
If we are speaking about a personal experience, either positive or negative when someone asks us "what do you know about so and so" I just met them and I wanted to check them out before I got involved with them, is this gossip?
what if you have had a personal experience with that person where they did something really bad, like lying or cheating which hurt someone a lot. If I was asking I would want to hear the truth, that this person is someone to be wary of and stay away from.
I see this as very different than going around to everyone you know and telling a story, that is gossip.
But I have played with some men in the bdsm scene who are just bad apples and I would have loved to have been warned away from them. After the fact i am finding out that others have had bad experiences with them also but if no one ever talks about it, how is anyone supposed to know and stay safe?
This is an ethical dilema I have been dealing with for a while, on both sides.
I have not been warned and wish i was and now I would like to warn but it feels like gossip.
how do you draw the line?
What if I know that a person in a couple is cheating? Do I just stay silent when i know that someone i care about is in this situation?
I hate secrets.
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Tue, June 5, 2007 - 1:26 AMHELLLLOOOO!!!!
can't seperate the agreements....
If you are gossiping about someone else, then you are actually talking about yourself to a certain degree.
(Ann- praise or blame, it doesn't matter)
see 'take nothing personally' and reflect it to the self when talking about others....or making shit up=gossiping
gossiping = assumptions
Hey! Look at THAT! there's another agreement!
see the self regulating loop here?
don't pull it apart, they are put together for a reason. -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 9:06 PMHere my delima. I work close with a person and we have quite the gossip relationship. I don't enjoy ( most of the time) and would be pased to see this part of our relationship disappear. I fear telling him this as if it is the same as telling him i dislike him as a person. I have tried just not responding but it caused a whole diffrent type of friction. I'm new to the Four areements and know I can only change myself and stop my flow of poision. any suggestions on a tactful way to go about this? -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 5:56 AMThe wording of the first agreement is, "Be impeccable with your word". For me, this tells me where to go or not go with any conversation, including the idea of gossip. He says to avoid spreading poison about yourself or others. Okay, so a while back I made a lot of assumptions about my primary relationship, was hurting over it, and talked to a few people about what I *thought* was happening. Was that impeccable? Hell, no! I didn't ask him how he felt, I took a bunch of things personally and made a lot of assumptions and spread poison about him to make myself feel better, and didn't even realize I was doing so. In my hurt and my fear, I spread a bunch of poison about a man I love a lot, who, it turns out, loves me a lot too.
In another situation, a woman I work with who I thought was my friend, has been having regular monthly parties and inviting a bunch of people from work, but not me. That hurt a lot, and when I found out about it, I was tempted to say a bunch of nasty things about her, but kept my mouth shut. When I was asked about it by another coworker, I did say that I felt really hurt and that I thought we were friends, all the while keeping my comments in check and being careful to not trash the woman while still expressing my hurt to someone who wanted to be supportive.
So sometimes it's a fine line.
Ruiz also says that part of impeccability is to "say only what you mean". So this for me also says that if I am clear about a situation, have not made assumptions or taken it personally, it's okay to talk about it, as long as I'm not exaggerating or deliberately trying to sway anyone or spread poison. This allows me to find support and sometimes insights (or even answers) to dilemmas with others, without breaking the first agreement. We all need support, and sometimes it can be really helpful to talk to another human who can help you sort things out.
That's my $.02 anyway...
Thuri -
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Re: The first agreement and gossip
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 7:01 PMSometimes (not often) in my work, I am asked to give a reference where I feel that to be fair the reference would be bad.
I feel in a place where I need to hurt one person to help another. I am not even sure if there is a right answer.
I try to go in a direction that I feel is best at that time. I am not sure if it is gossip but it is telling one person about another.
Sometimes I have not given an answer, not knowing what I should or should not say. It can be hard.
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